Serial Killers and Side Quests
Serial Killers and Side Quests is a true-crime podcast where one host keeps the story on track and the other immediately wanders off it. My wife dives into the chilling lives, crimes, and psychology of history's most notorious killers, while I interrupt with random facts, bizarre connections, and completely unexpected tangents. Come for the murder, stay for the side quests - because getting distracted has never been this entertaining.
Serial Killers and Side Quests
The Toolbox Killers
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This week, we're diving into the disturbing case of Lawrence Bittaker and Roy Norris- the killers behind one of the most horrifying murder sprees of the 1970s. How they met, what they did, and how investigators finally brought them down.
Today I'm going to tell you about two disgusting pieces of human garbage. The story comes with a trigger warning for rape and torture. This is the case of the toolbox killers, Lawrence Biddaker and Roy Norris. Welcome to episode one. Let's back up to way before they even met. We'll start with Lawrence Bidaker. He was born September 27, 1940, and adopted shortly after birth by the Bidaker family. George, his adopted father, worked on aircrafts, which caused them to move around fairly often. They moved from Pennsylvania to Florida to Ohio, and finally they ended up in California where they stayed. Despite having an IQ of 138, meaning he was in the top 1% of the population, he dropped out of high school in 1957 after having many run-ins with police. Soon after he dropped out, he was arrested for car theft, leaving the scene of an accident, and evading arrest, and was sent to the California Youth Authority until he was 19 years old. Once he was released, he was arrested again with the help of the FBI a few days later in Louisiana for violating the Interstate Motor Vehicle Theft Act and sentenced to 18 months in an Oklahoma federal reformatory. His behavior there got him transferred to a Missouri Medical Center where he was released after only serving six of his 18 months. At the end of 1960, Bitaker was arrested in Los Angeles, and by May of 1961, he was sentenced to 1 to 15 years in a state prison.
SPEAKER_04How does that work? How do you get sentenced to 1 to 15? Like what?
SPEAKER_00They say, we're gonna put you in and we're just gonna see how long we can keep you here. You might be here a year, you might be here 15 years. You might be here somewhere in between. I guess that's how that works. I really don't know. It's an odd sentence.
SPEAKER_03I mean it was the 60s, so you know they didn't understand much, I guess.
SPEAKER_00After he was sentenced and to the state prison, he was evaluated by a psychiatrist where it was deemed that he was paranoid and borderline psychotic. Unfortunately, even after these findings, he was released in 1963. Two months later, he was arrested again for violating his parole and suspected robbery, released, and arrested again in October of 1964.
SPEAKER_04Hold up, Rewind. You're you're telling me that one to fifteen years?
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_04And he only served two?
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. That's that falls in between the one and the fifteen.
SPEAKER_02That's some good justice work right there. I mean let's just do two years and be done.
SPEAKER_00Just to turn right around and get arrested again. Get arrested again for violating parole and suspected robbery. He was yet again evaluated, and surprise, surprise, he was found to be borderline psychotic. Clearly, this man has issues, but they keep releasing him. Had they put him in an institution or kept him in jail, none of the horrible things he did later would have happened. Anyways, Bitaker was arrested two more times between 1967 and 1971. After his arrest in 1971, he was sentenced to 15 years. Not one to 15, just 15 this time.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, thank God we got it right this time.
SPEAKER_00But he only served three before being released.
SPEAKER_04Oh goodger.
SPEAKER_00Sometime between that release and 1976, Bittaker was arrested again because he stabbed a grocery store employee in the parking lot of the store.
SPEAKER_04It was over meat, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_00This man stuffed a steak down his pants, and the employee followed him outside to try to stop him.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, see, I thought it was a ham, but steak makes more sense.
SPEAKER_00Steak is expensive. I mean, it's probably expensive back in the 70s, too. Luckily, the grocery store employee survived, and Bidaker was convicted of attempted murder and sent to the California Men's Colony in San Luis Obispo. In 1976, he was given a third psych evaluation, except this time the results showed that he was not borderline psychotic, but instead that he was a sociopath. One psychiatrist called him a sophisticated psychopath. Despite the warnings from the psychiatrist, Bitaker was released November 15th, 1978, and he moved back to Los Angeles. You would think if a psychiatrist is warning you about the things that this person could do or might be capable of, you would think that you would want to keep them away from the public?
SPEAKER_04I don't know, maybe. Or maybe that psychiatrist just had it out for him. How are you supposed to know?
SPEAKER_00I mean, regardless, I if I were in that situation and a psychiatrist was telling me that this person that's behind bars is capable of these horrific things, I think I would probably be inclined to try to keep him behind bars, not not release him shortly thereafter.
SPEAKER_02I don't know. It's kind of a trend.
SPEAKER_00Seems that way with him.
SPEAKER_02With everyone. With all series.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. Moving on to Roy Norris. Thankfully, that's the last time I think I have to say his first name. Norris was born in Greeley, Colorado, on February 2nd, 1948. Unlike Bitaker, Norris stayed in his hometown until he was 17 years old. He also dropped out of school, but instead of starting his life of crime right away, he joined the Navy. During his time in the Navy, he never saw combat, but he did find drugs. Marijuana to be exact. In 1969, he was in San Diego, where he was stationed. When he started working on his rap sheet. Norris attacked a female driver, and by forcing his way into her car, he attempted to rape her. Obviously, he was arrested, but released. And just three months later, while out on bail, he knocked on a woman's door, asked if he could use her phone, and when she told him no, he tried to break in through the living room window. And then he went to the kitchen and he finally got inside. Luckily, the lady was able to call police, and the police showed up before he was able to hurt her. At this point, he was discharged from the Navy.
SPEAKER_06What?
SPEAKER_00You know, I think back in what did I say in 69? I think they were a little more lenient, maybe. Lenient? Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, lenient. Okay. Way to go, Navy.
SPEAKER_00Think they were like, oh, he he didn't he didn't kill everybody.
SPEAKER_06He only tried to rape somebody. It's alright. It's no big deal.
SPEAKER_00It's a misdemeanor. It's okay.
SPEAKER_06Is rape a misdemeanor?
SPEAKER_00I don't know.
SPEAKER_06I don't think so. Pretty sure that's a felony charge. Like why are we raping somebody?
SPEAKER_00Maybe in in the 60s it wasn't.
SPEAKER_06I don't know. I'll have to do some research on that.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, he was discharged from the Navy finally. And he had a psychoevaluation done, which ended with him being diagnosed with severe schizoid personality. While waiting on his trial for the previous assault cases in 1970, Norris attacked a third woman on the campus of San Diego State College. So this is while he is waiting on his trial for the other two assaults.
SPEAKER_06Right. Pretty much on what parole?
SPEAKER_00Eh, sort of.
SPEAKER_06He was kind of like on supervised watch.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_06In a way.
SPEAKER_00And he's just like, I'm bored. Let me go rape another verse. I'm gonna go attack somebody else. This attack was an escalation from the other two, with Norris tackling the girl from behind and hitting her with a large rock. He slammed her head repeatedly into the sidewalk.
SPEAKER_06You know, I can it's really weird. I can actually visualize it. What's happening? And I I just see him in football gear attacking.
SPEAKER_00Running up and just like bear hug tackling her from behind.
SPEAKER_02He's she's got the ball. And then smash her head in.
SPEAKER_00And then hitting her with a large rock.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And slamming her head repeatedly into the sidewalk. Like, honestly, that's kind of scary to me though.
SPEAKER_06What?
SPEAKER_00Like that whole situation.
SPEAKER_06What do you mean?
SPEAKER_00She was probably just minding her own business, just walking down the sidewalk, and just out of nowhere, you just get fucking football tackled and your head bashed in.
SPEAKER_06Hell yeah. It happens every day. That kind of shit happens all the time, babe.
SPEAKER_00I know, but that whole scene is just scary. Thankfully, this woman survived, but Norris was only charged with assault with a deadly weapon.
SPEAKER_06So was she raped?
SPEAKER_00It didn't say that she was a big thing.
SPEAKER_06So it was it was an attempt, but we don't know.
SPEAKER_00I don't even know if he was attempting to rape her.
SPEAKER_06Oh, he just wanted to bash her head.
SPEAKER_00I think he just was like, like I said, I'm bored. I'm gonna go see what kind of trouble I can get into. And then he just saw this girl walking down the sidewalk and he was like, Yeah.
SPEAKER_06That's the one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I picture Bobby Boucher.
SPEAKER_01Like water boy just age to roo. Exactly what I pictured though.
SPEAKER_00Thankfully, this was enough to get him put away for a while, though. He was incarcerated at a Tescadero State Hospital as a mentally disordered sex offender, where he spent five years before he was released on probation after being deemed, quote, no longer a threat to others. I wonder what he did in the state hospital for them to be like, nah, he's fine. There's nothing wrong with him.
SPEAKER_06I mean, probably the same thing that all of them do. But I mean, I guess it's teeth, obviously.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, I guess if you're watched 24-7 and your quote unquote type of victim isn't easily accessible, it would be pretty easy to Act normal. Act normal, yeah. At no surprise to anyone, he was only out for three months before he attacked and raped a 27-year-old woman who, again, was just minding her own business walking home from a restaurant after having an argument with her boyfriend.
SPEAKER_06Well, I mean, it w it was definitely a surprise to somebody. Like stupid motherfucker who wanted to say, oh, he's no longer a threat.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_06That that person was surprised.
SPEAKER_00That person was probably surprised. That prop that person was probably like, oh, I fucked up.
SPEAKER_06Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Oh, my bad. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_02No longer a threat. It's only been three months. What it was.
SPEAKER_00It was wrong. Norris had stopped to ask this lady if she wanted a ride. And when she rejected him and said no, he jumped off his motorcycle and attacked her. He used her own scarf to strangle her until she was semi-conscious. And then he drug her behind a hedge and raped her. Unfortunately, she wasn't able to get a great description. And so there wasn't really anything that the police had to go on to find him. However, a month later, the woman saw Norris again and she memorized his license plate and reported it to the police. It was after being arrested and convicted of forcible rape that he was sent to the California Men's Colony in San Luis Obispo. It is. Here is where he met and became friends with Bidaker. According to Norris, Bidaker saved his life twice during their time at the men's colony, which bound him to Biddaker according to quote unquote prison code.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, it's the same code that says, hey, here's my pocket. Now you're my bitch.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, basically. Which is why whatever plan Bidaker would come up with, Norris had to follow him no matter how crazy it may have seemed. But January 15th, 1979, Norris was released, and exactly two months later, Biddaker was released. The two of them shared near-identical fantasies of rape, torture, and domination, which led to them hatching a plan to kidnap, rape, and kill local girls. At one point, Biddaker confided in Norris that the next woman that he quote unquote had fallen to his clutches, he would kill her as a surefire way to not get caught and arrested again. He thought it would be a fun game for them to play to find one victim for each of the teen years. So ages 13 through 19, and see how long each victim could be kept alive and screaming. Once he was released, Biddaker moved back to Los Angeles and began working as a machinist. And after Norris's release, he moved back in with his mom in LA. So they're they're both in LA at this point in time. Norris and his mom lived in a trailer park where it is believed that they had an incestuous relationship. And Norris found work as an electrician.
SPEAKER_06I wonder if it was consensual. The incest.
SPEAKER_00I mean, maybe.
SPEAKER_06Well, I mean, he likes to rape people, so that's what I was gonna say.
SPEAKER_00Like maybe it's consensual, but maybe not.
SPEAKER_06It probably was.
SPEAKER_00Some weird people out there. Bidaker wrote Norris a letter in February of 1979 and arranged a meetup at a cheap motel where they had some drinks, rekindled their prison friendship, and discussed their dark desires. Together they concocted a plan to rape and kill girls local to the area. Biddeker bought a 1977 GMC cargo passenger van that had no side windows and a sliding door. Basically the typical kidnapper van that you think of. Here's some candy, little girl. Precisely. They named the van Murder Mac.
SPEAKER_06It's a Halloween Big Mac.
SPEAKER_00Makes me think of the mystery machine from Scooby-Doo. And from February to June of 1979, they ran test runs on their plan. They drove up and down the Pacific Coast Highway, stopping at beaches to talk and flirt with the with girls, and would often take pictures of the girls. The two were arrested, again, surprisingly. And Norris would say later that they had about 20 girls picked out. Police would find out that his numbers may have been just a little bit off because they found around 500 pictures of smiling young women among Bitaker's stuff, and most of the girls were never identified.
SPEAKER_06You know how long it took to put like the person who develops film to do all that? Like that took forever.
SPEAKER_00I mean What if they used a Polaroid? Because it was in the 70s.
SPEAKER_06Good point. They may have used a Polaroid. But I mean, they were born in the 40s. I don't think they're the type of people that would have been like, ooh, a Polaroid. They probably went with a film.
SPEAKER_00I mean, but with a Polaroid, they wouldn't have to worry about people asking questions like, hey, why do you have all these pictures of random women?
SPEAKER_06I mean, from what I understand, these pictures are just smiling girls. What's the issue with that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but why why would some random guy be like, here's this film? And then when you're developing it, all you see is smiling girls and they're not the same girl. Probably didn't look alike. Like they probably didn't all have the same hair color, eye color.
SPEAKER_06You see, and that's where we differ. I would not care. If I was the film dude, like the one that develops it. Develops it. I I don't give a fuck. Like as long as it's not murder on there. It's a girl. You took a picture of a girl. How do I know he's not a private investigator? Yeah, but I How do I know that this film hasn't been done for over many, many, many years? And it's just all the girlfriends he's ever had.
SPEAKER_00Five hundred girlfriends?
SPEAKER_06Five hundred five? What's the difference? A couple zeros? Oh well. Like it's not that big a deal.
SPEAKER_01Like 495 pictures is the difference there, babe. Nah, nah, it's fine.
SPEAKER_06But see, that that's what's different.
SPEAKER_01I would have some questions.
SPEAKER_06I wouldn't. Who knows? Maybe he's using it as a spank bank.
SPEAKER_01See, this is this this is where the the male and the female brain differ. You see it as just eh, whatever.
SPEAKER_00And I see it as there's something wrong with this man.
SPEAKER_06I mean, it not really. Not really. If they're all smiling girls and everything and it's in like they're just in the background. Like they're just outside and they're just smiling girls. For all I know, it could have been like, okay, well, this was a friend. I want to remember their face.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think back then they also had like the talent scout people who would like not talent scout, but you know the people that would be in like the malls or whatever and modeling scouts or whatever.
SPEAKER_06It's California.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Home of Hollywood. Like, of course, how is that weird?
SPEAKER_00I just think it's weird because you have the this one, maybe they both went in to get the pictures developed.
SPEAKER_06Like they probably used a Polaroid. This is too much argument. Like they they they used a Polaroid.
SPEAKER_00Sure, they used a Polaroid.
SPEAKER_06It's pretty simple.
SPEAKER_00I feel I feel like they probably did. Anyways, now that they had found their prospects, they had to find the perfect isolated spot to commit their crimes. In late April, while out for a drive, the pair found a remote fire road in the San Gabriel Mountains. There was a gate with a padlock blocking their access to the remote area, but Bitaker took out a crowbar and smashed the lock, and they were in. Now all they needed was a girl. It's now June of 1920.
SPEAKER_06Damn, we go back in time.
SPEAKER_01Yep, we sure did.
SPEAKER_06I went from 1970s to 1920s before they were even born. Way to go. I didn't know that time traveled.
SPEAKER_01I don't know where this the two came from.
SPEAKER_00June of 1979. Their day started off innocently enough, according to Bittaker. He had slept in Murder Mac the night before while parked outside the trailer that Norris shared with his mom. Why he didn't ask to like sleep on the couch? Oh no. But he slept in the van.
SPEAKER_06Well, because Norris and his mom were getting it on.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, that's true. He probably didn't want to sleep on the couch. The two men spent the morning constructing a bed in the van with a bed frame having enough space underneath where they could hide a body. By 11 that morning, they were out looking for their first victim. Biddeker described the day as a nice Sunday to cruise around the beach area, drinking beer, smoking grass, and flirting with the girls.
SPEAKER_05Let's go drink some beer, smoke some grass, and get some ass. That's exactly what he said.
SPEAKER_00On a nice Sunday. They drove north, stopping at all the spots between Redondo Beach and Santa Monica, looking for female hitchhikers, and every now and then they would go walk the beach looking for, quote unquote, her. By 5 p.m., they were back at Redondo Beach where they found who they were looking for. Norris and Bitaker argued over who noticed her first, each of them saying that she could be their first contestant in their game. Her name was Cindy Schaefer. And she was just 16 years old. So they started in the middle of their tournament? Their 13 to 19 age range.
SPEAKER_06Their contenders were not in numerical order.
SPEAKER_00No. And that would have driven me personally.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, that's the OCD.
SPEAKER_00That's the OCD. But you know what? They're doing them. It's okay. Well, it's not okay, but it's not okay at all. But they're starting in the middle. She was walking to her grandma's house after a Christian youth meeting. Biddaker and Norris pulled up beside her, and Norris offered her a ride. Seems like Norris is doing all the ride offering. Even before he got with Biddicker on this game. Schaefer refused the ride and tried to ignore the fact that the pair was following her until the van sped forward and turned into a driveway. Norris met Cindy on the sidewalk, repeating his offer with a smile. Cindy tried to ignore him and kept walking past, but Norris grabbed her and wrestled her into the van through the sliding door. Bitaker turned up the radio to drown out Cindy's cries for help. After wrestling with her for a bit, Norris duct taped Cindy's mouth and bound her wrists and ankles. The only thing left to show that anyone had been in the area as the van sped away was just one of Cindy's shoes. They drove out to the fire road where both men smoked some weed and questioned Cindy until they got bored. And then they told her to take off her clothes. Bidaker left, giving Norris some privacy to have his turn to rape Cindy.
SPEAKER_06Such a gentleman.
SPEAKER_00Before he came back to take his turn. Then after Biddaker had his turn, he took a coat hanger, straightened it out, and wrapped the wire hanger around her neck. He took vice grips and tightened it, eventually strangling her to death. They wrapped her body in a shower curtain and then pushed it down into a nearby canyon. July 8th, they were on the hunt again throughout the same areas. They saw a girl standing on the roadside, but before they could stop, a white convertible pulled in and picked her up. Norris was bitching about their bad luck, but Biddicker told him to be patient, that they would follow the convertible and pick her up wherever she was dropped off. Soon that's exactly what happened. Norris jumped into the back of Murdermac and hid under the bed so that the van would seem less threatening, looking like there was only one male instead of two. The girl was 18-year-old Andrea Hall. Biddaker talked to her and got her into the van, where he offered her a drink from the cooler in the back. When she went to get it out, Norris jumped out from under the bed, grabbed her, and bound her arms and legs and put tape over her mouth. Andrea fought hard, but Norris was too strong. They drove back out to the fire road and immediately started taking turns raping her repeatedly. When they were done, Biddaker took her from the van and sent Norris on a beer run. When he came back, Andrea was gone. And Bidaker was sitting there smiling at Polaroid pictures. See? Maybe it was a Polaroid.
SPEAKER_05It must have been.
SPEAKER_00And when that didn't kill her quick enough, he strangled her until she died and then threw her body off a cliff. So much for seeing how long they could keep them alive.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, no, it's they killed them instantly. They don't care about their little game.
SPEAKER_00Their game, they just want to kill people. Later, Norris told police that he, meaning Biddicker, told me he was going to kill her. He wanted to see what her argument would be for staying alive. He said he she didn't put up much of an argument. Basically saying that she didn't she didn't give a good enough reason why she should stay alive. Fast forward a few months to September 3rd, while the two were out driving around Yeah, they're most on the beach.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_00They saw two girls sitting at a bus stop. So they pulled up and asked them if they wanted a ride. The girls were 15-year-old Jackie Gilliam and 13-year-old Leah Lamp. So are you keeping count of the ages?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I sure am. We got a 16-year-old, an 18-year-old, a 13-year-old, and a 15-year-old. Yep. That's four of the seven. They haven't finished their polka dex yet.
SPEAKER_00Not the polkedex I would want. Even though the girls weren't waiting on the bus, they took the guys up on their offer. Bidaker said that he and Norris were headed to the beach and asked the girls if they wanted to smoke a joint with them, which the girls agreed to.
SPEAKER_06Obviously. They're teenage girls and it's marijuana.
SPEAKER_00In the 70s, early 80s.
SPEAKER_06Of course they're gonna want a joint.
SPEAKER_00However, the girls started to get suspicious when Bitaker turned the opposite direction, driving away from the ocean. But he assured them he was just trying to find somewhere they could go get high without being bothered. Why couldn't you just drive towards the ocean and find somewhere towards the ocean?
SPEAKER_06I'm just confused as to why a 13-year-old and a 15-year-old looked in a van, saw some two old dudes, and was like, yeah, let's do it.
SPEAKER_03Like, what?
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, like back in those days.
SPEAKER_06What? Back in those days when peace, man.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_06This is all the world needs to be. Make love and smoke some weed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, basically. Everybody, everybody was a lot more trusting back then.
SPEAKER_06I don't know why.
SPEAKER_00I don't know either, considering how many serial killers were around at that time that people knew of, especially in California.
SPEAKER_07Yep.
SPEAKER_00The girls argued when Bitaker pulled into a parking lot of a tennis court, and Leah tried to open the back door, but Norris hit her in the back of the head with a bat. An intense struggle ensued, and the pair subdued the girls and bound them with duct tape. But oops, they didn't check their surroundings very well before deciding to stop at the tennis courts. And they quickly realized that several tennis players were watching what had just happened. Scared that someone might call the cops, which probably should have happened, they sped away back to the fire road.
SPEAKER_06But of course nobody called.
SPEAKER_00Probably not. Luckily for them, nobody called.
SPEAKER_02Go figure.
SPEAKER_00This time though, Biddeker and Norris changed tactics a little bit. Instead of immediately raping and killing their victims, which I thought was the whole point of their game to begin with, they kept the girls alive for almost two days.
SPEAKER_06No, the point of the game was to see how long they would stay alive.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but so far they've only killed immediately.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, but I guess they forgot about their game. You know. I mean, I guess be on high ones.
SPEAKER_00You gotta have some practice.
SPEAKER_06No. Being high on the Mary Juana.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Probably screwed up their memory a little bit.
SPEAKER_00So they kept the girls alive for two days and recorded audio of the rape and torture. This audio tape is rough, and on it, Norris can be heard demanding Jackie, who was the 15-year-old, to play the role of his cousin, who was part of some of his sexual fantasies. So maybe Mama wasn't consensual.
SPEAKER_06Probably not.
SPEAKER_00By the end of day two, or maybe the beginning of day three, Biddaker had stabbed Jackie in the ears with an ice pick, like he did to his previous victim Andrea. But when she didn't die, Biddaker and Norris took turns strangling her until she did. Then they turned their attention to Leah. Bidaker strangled her, and Norris took a sledgehammer to her head. Not once or twice, but seven times.
SPEAKER_06Was she just watching the whole time?
SPEAKER_00I mean, she was tied up, like bound bound with duct tape.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, but I mean, like, was she just sitting there watching?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I don't think she was just sitting there watching.
SPEAKER_06I I understand that she didn't have a choice. So I'm curious if they like put her towards the door.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I'm sure they made her watch.
SPEAKER_06They made her watch it all.
SPEAKER_00More like psychological torture.
SPEAKER_03You're gonna be next.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. More some of that psychological torture on top of the physical torture that she endures later. Or later.
SPEAKER_06Now she's dead with seven hits of a sledgehammer to the head.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Just like before, they took their victims' bodies and threw them over the cliff. With the ice picks still sticking out of Jackie's head.
SPEAKER_06Is it still at the fire break? Yeah. At the so are all these bodies at the same cliff?
SPEAKER_00I don't know if they're at the same cliff or if they like determine how far in they're gonna go. So that would be like September 5th, September 6th. Now we're gonna jump to the end of September to September 30th. They came up on Shirley Sanders, an 18-year-old, and just like the others, they offered her a ride. When she declined, they sprayed her with pepper spray and pulled her kicking and screaming off the sidewalk and into murder mac. Both men took their turn raping her, but they were careless after the fact, and she managed to escape. She reported the assault to police, but she couldn't identify the men or remember the license plate. So again, there wasn't much the police could do. If you're gonna escape, try to remember to get the license plate.
SPEAKER_06You don't really have time for that.
SPEAKER_00I mean, okay.
SPEAKER_06True. You're trying to run away, not you know, turn around, memorize the license plate, and then run away.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah.
SPEAKER_06But Nobody's gonna do that.
SPEAKER_00Try to at least What? I don't know.
SPEAKER_06Exactly. You're getting raped, you're not liking what's happening. It's time to run. And that means run.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_06Not turn the back around and be like, what was the license plate?
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, at least if you could tell them, like, hey, it was a white van.
SPEAKER_06It was a gray van, not a white van.
SPEAKER_00Whatever. Tell them the color of the van and like give them some details about it. Well, I don't know if well, surely they had this kind of thing back then where they can like look up who owns gray vans? Like all the people that have the this type of vehicle.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, and how many people do you think are driving around without registration in a gray van? Probably a ton.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. I wasn't alive back then. With Shirley escaping, Biddeker and Norris were worried police might be coming for them at any moment, as they probably should have been. So the two took a pause in their kidnapping and killings. Biddicker got an apartment in Burbank, and Norris went back home to his mommy, and the two just laid low for the month. That is up until Halloween night.
SPEAKER_06It was so it it was consensual.
SPEAKER_00Because he keeps going back home to mommy.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, he keeps going back home to mommy. Because if if it wasn't consensual, I'm pretty sure mommy would have done said something to someone. I mean, unless he was like what, gone for four months and she just decided not to do a damn thing.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah.
SPEAKER_06It was consensual.
SPEAKER_00But that's her baby.
SPEAKER_06Maybe she's just like That's her baby that she loves too much because it was consensual.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, if Bidaker got an apartment, he could have easily just gone to live with Biddaker.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But instead he went back to mommy until Halloween night. And they decided to change it up a bit. Instead of driving around the beaches, they took to the streets of the San Fernando Valley. They noticed Shirley Lynette Ledford. She went by Lynette, so that's what I'm gonna call her for the rest of the story.
SPEAKER_06I don't know if anybody else caught that, but it was Shirley and Shirley that got caught.
SPEAKER_00Yep. Lynette was hitchhiking and as everybody else, was asked if she wanted a ride. She happily accepted, and in less than five minutes, she was regretting her decision when Norris wrestled her to the floor in the back of the van. Biddaker wasted no time, and instead of driving to the fire road, they raped her as they drove around LA. Norris took the wheel while Biddaker took his turn with Lynette. He turned on the tape recorder and began his torture. On the tape, you can hear this conversation take place. This is going to be a very tame and not so graphic paraphrased version of the conversation because I read the transcript and it's rough.
SPEAKER_06If you want to read the transcript, then we'll put it up as a secondary link on our webpage.
SPEAKER_00The conversation goes like this. Biddicker slaps Lynette. Say something, girl. Lynette, what do you want me to say? The slapping continues along with Lynette's whimpers of pain. Biddicker. You can scream louder than that, can't you? Lynette tries to appease him, but Bidaker wants more. Bidaker. Scream, baby. At this point, Bidaker has forced Lynette to servicing him orally while he continued to beat her. He then got a pair of pliers from his toolbox, and for a while on the recording, all you hear is Lynette screaming and crying as Bidaker uses his pliers to twist and squeeze her vaginal area and nipples. There's more conversation happening, more loud screaming as Bidaker inserts and twists the pliers into her rectum, causing tearing of the lining to occur. Now, Norris pipes up, but since Biddicker's attack on Lynette had been so rough and caused bleeding, Norris didn't penetrate her again. But he says, I'm still gonna get mine. And he made her blow him before he started smashing her elbow with the sledgehammer. He hit her elbow 25 times back to back. The last words Lynette says on the recording before it is turned off, and she's strangled by a wire hanger, was her telling Norris, do it, just kill me. All this happened in the back of the van while they were just driving around LA. They then took her mutilated body, chose a random lawn, and laid her naked body face up with her arms outstretched and her legs spread apart. She was found the next morning.
SPEAKER_06Face up, hold on, face up, arms outstretched. Starfish?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, starfish.
SPEAKER_06Oh.
SPEAKER_00LA was shocked with the find of the body, especially since just days before Lynette's body was found, another serial killer known as the Hillside Stranglers had just been arrested.
SPEAKER_06Stranglers?
SPEAKER_00Stranglers.
SPEAKER_06Multiples?
SPEAKER_00There were it was another duo.
SPEAKER_06Okay. We'll have to go over that one day.
SPEAKER_00Remember what we were saying about how this was a fun game for them to play?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, Pokedex.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Finding one victim for each of the teen years.
SPEAKER_06Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Gotta catch them all.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, of course. 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19.
SPEAKER_00And they were gonna see how long each victim could be kept alive and screaming.
SPEAKER_06Right. They only got seven so far. Seven, no, sorry. They got four out of the seven.
SPEAKER_00And so far one got away. And they've only kept two of them alive for two to three days.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. I'm in the Okay.
SPEAKER_00Well Lynette kinda messed that up for them. Because she was the second 16-year-old they kidnapped and killed. Meaning they had three teenagers unaccounted for.
SPEAKER_06Mm-mm-mm. Wait, didn't didn't Shirley Sanders be well, they didn't they didn't kill her or finish. So I guess they wouldn't add that to their collection, but wasn't she 18?
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_06So that would have been the first miss up? Because they already had one 18-year-old.
SPEAKER_00Are you sure?
SPEAKER_06Yep. 13, 15, 16, and 18. And then there was Shirley Sanders, who was also 18. And then it was Shirley Lynette, who was 16.15. Those were together. The first one was a 16-year-old. No. I'll say the first one was an 18-year-old. The first one was an 18-year-old. Then they moved on to the 13-15.
SPEAKER_00No, the first one was 16.
SPEAKER_06Okay. So 16.
SPEAKER_00Second one was And then the second one was 18, Andrea Hall. And then 15 and 13.
SPEAKER_05Told you.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, I guess since they didn't kill She wasn't added to the collection. She wasn't added. Good catch, because I didn't I didn't catch that earlier. When I was looking all this up. So they still had three ages that they didn't have.
SPEAKER_06They haven't collected yet.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for lack of a better term, I guess. But Biddicker and Norris weren't concerned, and they thought they had all the time in the world to complete their collection. Unfortunately for them, their time was running out. Norris was the problem.
SPEAKER_06He went home and told Mama, huh?
SPEAKER_00He liked to run his mouth. By October of 1979, he had bragged about all of their escapades to one of his prison buddies.
SPEAKER_06Oh, so it wasn't Mama.
SPEAKER_00It was not Mama. It was prison buddy Jimmy Dalton. I don't know why people brag about their escapades. Brag to other prisoners or prisoners in general.
SPEAKER_06Because they think they're alike. It's the same way as if you read a really good book and then you had a friend that also likes to read, you're gonna tell them all about that book.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but what if Jimmy Dalton there wasn't a murderer and he was just in jail for I don't know, robbery or some shit.
SPEAKER_06I don't know, but they were prison buddies, so maybe they were bound by the same prison code.
SPEAKER_00Maybe, maybe Dalton was Norris's bitch.
SPEAKER_06Maybe.
SPEAKER_00Or maybe Norris was Dalton's bitch too.
SPEAKER_02I don't know what it is.
SPEAKER_00Anyways, Dalton there, he thought Norris was full of shit until Lynette's body was found. He, Dalton, then called his own lawyer, and the two of them went to LA to speak with police, who then sent him or sent them to detectives in Hermosa Beach. The lead detective on the case, Paul Binyum, had no forensic evidence that would support a charge in Lynette's case. But I guess rape kits weren't really a thing back then. So even though she was raped by Biddicker, I guess they couldn't they had no way of finding that out. But when Dalton mentioned a silver van, bells started going off in the detective's head. Detective Binyum sent officers to Oregon to interview Shirley Sanders, the victim that escaped. And when looking through photos that were provided to her to see if she could identify her attackers, she quickly picked out a picture each of Bitaker and Norris as the men who attacked her.
SPEAKER_06Just so you're aware. Rape kits were invented in the mid-1970s.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so they did have rape kits. I mean, very, very new.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. I mean, the concept and design was created in 1972 to 1978, somewhere around there, by Martha Marty Goodard, a victim advocate and founder of Chicago Citizens for victims assistance.
SPEAKER_00So rape kits were very, very new.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, they were they were brand new.
SPEAKER_00Meaning probably all departments didn't have them at the time. Like they were just being pushed out to everybody.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, pretty much. The kits weren't the kits weren't introduced until 1978 in Illinois hospitals.
SPEAKER_00No, yeah. So California didn't even have them yet.
SPEAKER_06No.
SPEAKER_00Which would make sense as to why they weren't able to use them. But Shirley had she's now picked out pictures of Bitaker and Norris and told the detectives or the officers that those are the two men who attacked her. Detectives then approached deputy district attorney Steve Kay, who had prosecuted Norris before on rape charges.
SPEAKER_06You know, the ones that he did right after he got Yeah, before getting with his nuts.
SPEAKER_00Bitter?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, that's the word bitaker.
SPEAKER_00He assured them that they needed to take their time and build a strong case. So that's what they did. They began surveilling the two men. Once again, Oris was the problem. And he was caught selling marijuana on the street. So instead of laying low like he was supposed to be, dumbass went and sold drugs. He's out there selling marijuana. Two days before Thanksgiving in 1979, Norris was arrested on parole violation via the marijuana charge. Now remember. He had been arrested before.
SPEAKER_06Right.
SPEAKER_00For the the rape charge. The rapes and the assaults and stuff. I'm assuming the last one, the one that he just got assault with a deadly weapon.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'm assuming that's the one that he was on parole for.
SPEAKER_06But then busted his parole by selling drugs.
SPEAKER_00Yes. But he's on parole this whole time that he's murdering these people.
SPEAKER_02He didn't care at all.
SPEAKER_00No, not at all. So he was arrested on the parole violation because of the marijuana charge. And Bidaker was arrested on suspicion of kidnapping and raping Shirley Sanders. I don't understand why. Okay, I get why Norris was only charged with the parole violation because of the marijuana. But if Shirley Sanders picked out a picture of both of them.
SPEAKER_06Why was Bitaker the only one given the rape charge?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, why didn't Norris also have a charge of suspicion of kidnapping and raping her?
SPEAKER_06I don't know. Maybe because they didn't have a rape kit.
SPEAKER_00Maybe.
SPEAKER_06And they could only pin it on one dude?
SPEAKER_00During the interrogations, Norris inevitably confessed. Like I said, he likes to run his mouth. But he did go back and forth with the interrogators. And he downplayed his role to quote unquote a reluctant accomplice. Basically, I'm his bitch, I have to do what he tells me to do.
SPEAKER_06That's my puppy.
SPEAKER_01No questions asked.
SPEAKER_00I had to reluctantly comply. With his confession, both Norris and Bitaker were charged with five counts of first-degree murder, with additional charges of kidnapping, robbery, rape, deviant sexual assault, and criminal conspiracy.
SPEAKER_06Deviant.
SPEAKER_00Deviant sexual assault.
SPEAKER_06Oh, I don't care about that. I just like the word deviant.
SPEAKER_00Oh. It is kind of a fun word to say. Deviant.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Deviant.
SPEAKER_00The men tried blaming each other for the worst of the worst acts, with Norris claiming that he was high on drugs throughout most of the ordeal and was unable to resist Bitaker's ideas and plans. Again, I'm his bitch. I'm high. I'm just doing what I'm told.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, sounds about right.
SPEAKER_00However, their idea to record everything so that they could listen to it again, that backfired on Norris because that showed that he was more than a willing participant.
SPEAKER_07Go figure.
SPEAKER_00February of 1980. We're finally out of 79. We finally made it to the 80s. Norris took the detectives, his district attorney, and the Sierra Madre search and rescue team to the murder sites out on that fire road.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And they found the bodies of Leah Lamp and Jackie Gilliam. But sadly, the bodies of Cindy Schaefer and Andrea Hall were never found.
SPEAKER_06Right. So the first two were never found, but the 13 and 15-year-old were.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Which why you asked earlier, like were they just like piled down the same cliff?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I don't understand. But then again, I was thinking about it, and it's probably to do with the wildlife.
SPEAKER_00Maybe like they drug the bodies off.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. They've been sitting there for a little bit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Like a whole year.
SPEAKER_06Wildlife probably took care of the bodies for them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_06That's why they were never found.
SPEAKER_00But also, I don't know how long the fire road was.
SPEAKER_06Oh, I have no idea. I'm like, I don't know where this fire road is. Like, why are you looking at me?
SPEAKER_00They like maybe it was long enough that they could have like driven down more and like they drove way far down for Cindy and like dumped her off. And then like maybe the next time they drove further or didn't drive as far. So like maybe they were spaced out more.
SPEAKER_02What do you mean?
SPEAKER_00And then because the 15 and the 13-year-old were together, they just dumped them in the same spot.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, but I I still feel like the wild life had something to do with it.
SPEAKER_00I mean, it probably did. Like, that's why I still don't think they've been found.
SPEAKER_06I don't think they're gonna be.
SPEAKER_00I mean, no bones or anything have been found.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I don't think they're gonna be.
SPEAKER_00They might be. With Norris's confession and him taking them to where the bodies were, that gave enough evidence for him to be able to take a plea bargain. So he kind of helped himself out in a way. Got a lesser sentence.
SPEAKER_06You would have thought that the Bidaker, the one with the high IQ, would have, you know, been the first one to do this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but Norris is the one that likes to run his mouth. He likes to talk. I think because of Biddaker's high IQ, he thought there was no way that he was gonna be pinned for this. Like maybe he thought there was a lot of people.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, there's no way with with a recording.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_06That's a very high IQ there. Real smart. We did not use some common sense.
SPEAKER_00I was about to say, like, high IQ, probably book smarts. Not common sense smarts. Norris received a sentence of 45 years to life with a minimum of 30 years served before parole. And he was eligible for release in 2010.
SPEAKER_06Denied.
SPEAKER_00Yes, he was denied parole in 2009. He didn't even make it to his 30-year mark. Release year.
SPEAKER_06He made it in 29. They had his parole hearing or his Yeah. Is that what it is?
SPEAKER_00Parole hearing?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, they had his parole hearing and was like, no.
SPEAKER_00You're staying. As for Bidaker, the district attorney was determined to seek the death penalty for him. During trial, Bidaker seemed to enjoy everything that was going on.
SPEAKER_06He liked the fame.
SPEAKER_00I think he liked the fame. He liked them retelling everything that happened.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, he liked the remote.
SPEAKER_00They probably played the recording and he liked reliving it, basically. He prepped for trial by writing his memoir titled The Last Ride. And even though his attorney warned him, he insisted on finishing it, convinced that jurors would believe him about Norris being the evil mastermind behind it all.
SPEAKER_06I wonder if we can find his memoir. I kind of want to read it.
SPEAKER_00I mean, you probably could if it was published anywhere. Obviously, the jurors didn't believe his shit.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And on February 17th, 1981, Bidaker was found guilty of five counts of murder along with 21 other related felonies and was sentenced to death March 24th, 1981. An alternate sentence was 199 years and four months in prison.
SPEAKER_06199 years, that's a long time.
SPEAKER_00Where are they now? Dead. That's where they are now. Bitteker died December 13th, 2019 of natural causes while on death row at San Quentin. And Norris died February 24th, 2020, also of natural causes at the California Medical Facility.
SPEAKER_06So Bidaker died seven years ago and Norris died six years ago.
SPEAKER_00Which is crazy to me. Yeah, that's the 80s wasn't that far away, but it it was. I don't know.
SPEAKER_06It just It was right down the road. Like what are you talking about?
SPEAKER_00Like reading it and seeing the dates, like it's it seems like it was so long ago. But then seeing that they just recently died.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. He died at 79 years old. And the other one was born 1948. Yeah, 1948. He died in 2020.
SPEAKER_00He was 72. So like they were old, but they weren't really that's not old.
SPEAKER_06What are you talking about?
SPEAKER_00That old.
SPEAKER_06I mean it's old. It's old, but it's not really. I mean, your parents are in their 60s.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I know. I was gonna say, but like, coming from the point of view of a 30-year-old, 32-year-old, 70 seems like a long time away. It's not, but it seems like I still got quite a few years before I hit 70. And that it seems so old, but at the same time, it doesn't seem that far away.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's not old.
SPEAKER_00It doesn't seem old at all. I know you're the the side quest fun facts kind of guy, but I have some fun facts for these. Or not so fun facts, depending on what you think is a fun fact. Actor Scott Glenn, while preparing for his role as an FBI profiler in The Silence of the Lambs, visited the FBI behavioral science unit and was able to listen to the audio tapes of the toolbox killings. He left the office in tears and told reporters later that before listening to the tapes, he was completely against the death penalty. But after leaving the office, he was 100% for it. It's gotta be pretty bad to like completely change somebody's point of view on the death penalty.
SPEAKER_06I mean, I guess, but that movie Silence of the Lambs is pretty good. It puts the lotion on the skin.
SPEAKER_02Or it gets the hose again.
SPEAKER_01Okay, but he was the profiler.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so the 2004 horror movie The Toolbox Murders obviously is in loosely inspired by Biddeker and Norris. And the brutal and methodical violence of Biddeker and Norris has been compared to Hannibal Lecter and Jigsaw.
SPEAKER_06Which I I don't understand how that's possible. Because like Jigsaw is way more gruesome than the amount of torture that they did.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_06But 25 times with a sledgehammer to the elbow. Not that bad.
SPEAKER_00I think it jigsaw has people's eyeballs being sucked out by vacuums.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, exactly. Not the same. Not even remotely.
SPEAKER_00Head in a giant like bear trap.
SPEAKER_06Not even remotely close to the same. So that I don't understand that.
SPEAKER_00I think it's more of like the way that they had it all planned out. Like Jigsaw has all of his stuff planned out. He knows exactly how it's gonna happen, when it's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_06So does Dexter Morgan. What's your point?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but Dexter, Dexter's not a bad guy, though.
SPEAKER_06You're proving my point here. He had it all planned out. He's a bad guy, but not a bad guy. He's an anti-hero.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Don't bring Dexter into this. I think it's comparing them as far as like, like I said, they they had a plan. They knew what they wanted. They knew how it was gonna happen, what they were gonna do. However, they did not stick to their plan. But that was one of the fun facts that I've got a fun fact for you.
SPEAKER_06You want to hear my fun fact?
SPEAKER_00What's your fun fact?
SPEAKER_06You know how they were sticking pliers in her butt.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_06The human anes.
SPEAKER_00They stretched her so far that's right. Right, right, right, right.
SPEAKER_06But the human anus can actually stretch large enough to fit two whole live raccoons up there. So yeah, just figured I'd throw that out there.
SPEAKER_01More concerned about how you know that fun fact.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I don't know. I just I learned that so many years ago.
SPEAKER_01Because I have never heard that.
SPEAKER_02Look it up.
SPEAKER_00But if you could fit two live rac raccoons, because raccoons aren't huge. I mean, they're girthy, like they're fat.
SPEAKER_06Correct.
SPEAKER_00But they're not like massive animals.
SPEAKER_05Well, they're not gerbils there, babe.
SPEAKER_01But I was just thinking, what is the equivalent of like smaller animals?
SPEAKER_06I don't know. Somebody better at math can figure that out.
SPEAKER_01Or bigger animals. What's this what's something that's the same size as two raccoons? I don't know.
SPEAKER_06Look, it's just a fun fact I figured I'd throw out there for you.
SPEAKER_00Just uh that's that's a wild fun fact there, babe. Not no pun intended, because raccoons are wild animals.
SPEAKER_06Alright, alright, alright. That's enough murder and nonsense for one episode.
SPEAKER_00Join us next time for more true crime.
SPEAKER_06More completely unnecessary information.
SPEAKER_00And absolutely zero ability to stay on topic.
SPEAKER_06Until then, lock your doors, trust your gut.
SPEAKER_00And maybe don't Google the side quest.
SPEAKER_03This has been Serial Killers and Side Quests.
SPEAKER_00True crime stories, random topics, zero focus.